code of conduct

[paulk_asert]

Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[sbglasius]

+1 for having a COC

Den ons. 18. nov. 2020 kl. 00.48 skrev Paul King <[hidden email]>:

Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[MG]

+1 for having one, -1 for calling it that

On 18/11/2020 08:52, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:

+1 for having a COC

Den ons. 18. nov. 2020 kl. 00.48 skrev Paul King <[hidden email]>:

Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[paulk_asert]

mg, what other suggestions do you have? Would you prefer "Community conduct"?

The filename isn't easily changed if we want it to be recognised by github: https://github.com/apache/groovy/community but the heading inside I believe we can choose.

Cheers, Paul.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:06 AM MG <[hidden email]> wrote:

+1 for having one, -1 for calling it that

On 18/11/2020 08:52, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:

+1 for having a COC

Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: [phone], Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.

Den ons. 18. nov. 2020 kl. 00.48 skrev Paul King <[hidden email]>:

Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[MG]

Hi Paul, no actual objections to the name - just a joke about the use of offensive language, to lighten the mood on a heavy subject. With honestly no intention to COCblock anyone ;-)

On 19/11/2020 03:57, Paul King wrote:

mg, what other suggestions do you have? Would you prefer "Community conduct"?

The filename isn't easily changed if we want it to be recognised by github: https://github.com/apache/groovy/community but the heading inside I believe we can choose.

Cheers, Paul.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:06 AM MG <[hidden email]> wrote:

+1 for having one, -1 for calling it that

On 18/11/2020 08:52, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:

+1 for having a COC

Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: [phone], Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.

Den ons. 18. nov. 2020 kl. 00.48 skrev Paul King <[hidden email]>:

Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[Konstantin Boudnik]

Ever since Linux Foundation started pushing the COC gags into ASF
projects I kept wondering if people won't behave in civil manner - just
like Paul has alluded to - unless they are explicitly told how to be
good boys and girls?

Let me ask a perhaps naive but a very honest question: why do we really
need a COC? The ASF has some sort of it in the books already, why do we
need a separate one?

Is it because Microsoft's github requires a checkmark due to their
virtue signaling being blown out of proportions? Or is it something else
that I am missing?

If you prefer a private reply - be my guest. I really want to know.
Thank you!
----
With regards,
   Cos

On 18.11.2020 02:47, Paul King wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within
> our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an
> elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems
> worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established
> by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:
>
> https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422 
> <https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422>
>
> Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.
>
> Thanks, Paul.
> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html 
> <https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html>
>

[paulk_asert]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we need a separate CoC. We just now have a short para which shows the link to the ASF one:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

Groovy has been very lucky to have on the whole a very friendly community. I guess in any community you can have a wide range of views, a wide range of views of what constitutes acceptable behavior, and a wide range of views of what should be spelt out about civility. I see a CoC as being a line in the sand at one end of a spectrum. My experiences in the Groovy community is that we are at the other end of the spectrum entirely, but I don't want to presume to speak for others who may be more sensitive. I don't think we ever want a situation where we can't have robust discussions, but I see no harm in being explicit that we should respect one another as we do.

Cheers, Paul.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:21 PM Konstantin Boudnik <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ever since Linux Foundation started pushing the COC gags into ASF
projects I kept wondering if people won't behave in civil manner - just
like Paul has alluded to - unless they are explicitly told how to be
good boys and girls?

Let me ask a perhaps naive but a very honest question: why do we really
need a COC? The ASF has some sort of it in the books already, why do we
need a separate one?

Is it because Microsoft's github requires a checkmark due to their
virtue signaling being blown out of proportions? Or is it something else
that I am missing?

If you prefer a private reply - be my guest. I really want to know.
Thank you!
----
With regards,
   Cos

On 18.11.2020 02:47, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within
> our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an
> elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems
> worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established
> by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:
>
> https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422
> <https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422>
>
> Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.
>
> Thanks, Paul.
> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html
> <https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html>
>

[Remko Popma]

+1 for having a COC

On Nov 18, 2020, at 8:48, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:



Hi everyone,

We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422

Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.

Thanks, Paul.

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html

[sbglasius]

I agree with Paul, There is no harm in having a CoC and to follow the general ASF one. 

I run GR8Conf, and we added a CoC for the conference, even without ever having to use it, but it's nice to have, in case someone does misbehave. It gives the organizers a tool to ask people to leave, if stepping over a line. 

The same goes for a CoC in an open source project like Groovy 

Den fre. 20. nov. 2020 kl. 06.09 skrev Paul King <[hidden email]>:

I don't think anyone is suggesting we need a separate CoC. We just now have a short para which shows the link to the ASF one:

https://github.com/apache/groovy/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

Groovy has been very lucky to have on the whole a very friendly community. I guess in any community you can have a wide range of views, a wide range of views of what constitutes acceptable behavior, and a wide range of views of what should be spelt out about civility. I see a CoC as being a line in the sand at one end of a spectrum. My experiences in the Groovy community is that we are at the other end of the spectrum entirely, but I don't want to presume to speak for others who may be more sensitive. I don't think we ever want a situation where we can't have robust discussions, but I see no harm in being explicit that we should respect one another as we do.

Cheers, Paul.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:21 PM Konstantin Boudnik <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ever since Linux Foundation started pushing the COC gags into ASF
projects I kept wondering if people won't behave in civil manner - just
like Paul has alluded to - unless they are explicitly told how to be
good boys and girls?

Let me ask a perhaps naive but a very honest question: why do we really
need a COC? The ASF has some sort of it in the books already, why do we
need a separate one?

Is it because Microsoft's github requires a checkmark due to their
virtue signaling being blown out of proportions? Or is it something else
that I am missing?

If you prefer a private reply - be my guest. I really want to know.
Thank you!
----
With regards,
   Cos

On 18.11.2020 02:47, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within
> our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an
> elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems
> worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established
> by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:
>
> https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422
> <https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422>
>
> Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.
>
> Thanks, Paul.
> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html
> <https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html>
>

+1 to what Konstantin wrote, and also my two Zimbabwe cents' worth: myself, I actually think it's harmful — albeit very slightly —, for things like this actually teach people not to behave unless they are explicitly told to.

Of course, this is an infinitesimally small incentive not to “behave reasonably, as always and wherever” but, instead, the nonsense of “behaving as being told”, small enough, actually, not to be worth this kind of debate at all :) Nevertheless, even so, it is a first step on a way which leads somewhere we definitely don't want to find ourselves some years (or decades) hence.

All the best,

OC

On 20 Nov 2020, at 5:21, Konstantin Boudnik <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ever since Linux Foundation started pushing the COC gags into ASF projects I kept wondering if people won't behave in civil manner - just like Paul has alluded to - unless they are explicitly told how to be good boys and girls?

Let me ask a perhaps naive but a very honest question: why do we really need a COC? The ASF has some sort of it in the books already, why do we need a separate one?

Is it because Microsoft's github requires a checkmark due to their virtue signaling being blown out of proportions? Or is it something else that I am missing?

If you prefer a private reply - be my guest. I really want to know. Thank you!
----
With regards,
 Cos

On 18.11.2020 02:47, Paul King wrote:

Hi everyone,
We have been fortunate that most of the time, the discussions within our community are very respectful, so I don't think we need to have an elaborate discussion about a project-specific code of conduct. It seems worthwhile though, pointing to the general code of conduct established by the ASF[1] which I propose to do:
https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422 <https://github.com/apache/groovy/pull/1422>
Let me know if you see any possible improvements/issues.
Thanks, Paul.
[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html <https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html>