TIOBE Programming Community Index for August 2011

[Daniel Henrique Alves Lima]

    Hi Russel.

Russel Winder wrote:

(...)

The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
not becomming a novella. (...)

    Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I hardly find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a different frame.

Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
and Grails. (...)
  

    Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives because of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
    PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.

As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
development Grails stagnates.
  

    I agree (?) ;-)
    I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules / extensions using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.

(...)

It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
material approved by Guillaume.
  

    Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can approve/reject the pull requests.
    For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool or anything without a clear flow of approval.

    For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the change:

    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
    http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313

   
    Best regards,

          Daniel.


   

[Guillaume Laforge]

Hi guys,

This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.

As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on overhauling the website and documentation.

There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content itself.

The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).

We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website -- we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.

So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to have a less ugly website.

The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made), but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably 3 times less "high" than it was previously.

The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was before.

http://groovy.codehaus.org/

Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!

PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography system http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as highlight.js for the Groovy syntax highlighting.

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Hi Russel.

Russel Winder wrote:

(...)

The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
not becomming a novella. (...)

    Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I hardly find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a different frame.

Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
and Grails. (...)
  

    Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives because of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
    PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.

As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
development Grails stagnates.
  

    I agree (?) ;-)
    I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules / extensions using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.

(...)

It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
material approved by Guillaume.
  

    Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can approve/reject the pull requests.
    For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool or anything without a clear flow of approval.

    For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the change:

    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
    http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313

   
    Best regards,

          Daniel.


   

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Soren Aalto]

The big suprise was finding the website for

http://groovy.org/

which:

- looks like the sort of website *I* would "develop"

- while it is for programming, they don't even use/mention

  groovy.

--
Soren Aalto
Director: ICT
University of Zululand

[Jochen Theodorou]

Am 08.09.2011 09:13, schrieb Soren Aalto:
> The big suprise was finding the website for
>
> http://groovy.org/
>
> which:
>
> - looks like the sort of website *I* would "develop"
> - while it is for programming, they don't even use/mention
>    groovy.

it is none under our control. Thanks to Burt we have groovy-lang.org though

bye blackdrag

--
Jochen "blackdrag" Theodorou - Groovy Project Tech Lead
blog: http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
german groovy discussion newsgroup: de.comp.lang.misc
For Groovy programming sources visit http://groovy-lang.org


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[Daniel Henrique Alves Lima]

    Hi Guillaume.

Guillaume Laforge wrote:

Hi guys,

This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.

    Welcome :-)

As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on overhauling the website and documentation.

There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content itself.

The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).

We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website (...)

    Good to know.

So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to have a less ugly website.

The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made), but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably 3 times less "high" than it was previously.

The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was before.

http://groovy.codehaus.org/

    I think it's a good start.

Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!

    BTW, if we're talking about "pure" web design, I can talk with a friend of mine. Depending of the price, I might even pay for an initial and nice html prototype. Of course, the job of applying this prototype to the real site would be ours or volunteers.

PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography system http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as highlight.js for the Groovy syntax highlighting.

     I don't know the difference, but some WP blogs use SyntaxHighlighter: http://alexgorbatchev.com/SyntaxHighlighter/manual/brushes/


    Best regards,

          Daniel.

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Hi Russel.

Russel Winder wrote:

(...)

The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
not becomming a novella. (...)

    Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I hardly find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a different frame.

Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
and Grails. (...)
  

    Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives because of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
    PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.

As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
development Grails stagnates.
  

    I agree (?) ;-)
    I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules / extensions using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.

(...)

It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
material approved by Guillaume.
  

    Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can approve/reject the pull requests.
    For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool or anything without a clear flow of approval.

    For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the change:

    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
    http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313

   
    Best regards,

          Daniel.


   

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Ronny Løvtangen]

Great Guillaume! A step in the right direction :)

Ronny

On Sep 8, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

Hi guys,

This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.

As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on overhauling the website and documentation.

There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content itself.

The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).

We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website -- we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.

So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to have a less ugly website.

The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made), but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably 3 times less "high" than it was previously.

The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was before.

http://groovy.codehaus.org/

Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!

PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography system http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as highlight.js for the Groovy syntax highlighting.

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Hi Russel.

Russel Winder wrote:

(...)

The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
not becomming a novella. (...)

    Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I hardly find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a different frame.

Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
and Grails. (...)
  

    Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives because of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
    PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.

As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
development Grails stagnates.
  

    I agree (?) ;-)
    I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules / extensions using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.

(...)

It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
material approved by Guillaume.
  

    Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can approve/reject the pull requests.
    For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool or anything without a clear flow of approval.

    For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the change:

    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
    http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313

   
    Best regards,

          Daniel.


   

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Bob Brown]

Much nicer, imho.

For me on ie8/xp (work) ie9/ win7 (home) and on my ipad, the icon above Guillame's name in the "latest news" section shows as a broken link with a red cross and "user icon: glaforge".

At work, the star to the left of 'Groovy' on the fixed top bar shows as an empty box, is this due to a mossing font? Its ok on the ipad and at home...

Hth.

Cheers,

Bob

Sent from my iPad

On 09/09/2011, at 5:52 AM, Ronny Løvtangen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great Guillaume! A step in the right direction :)

Ronny

On Sep 8, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

Hi guys,

This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.

As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on overhauling the website and documentation.

There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content itself.

The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).

We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website -- we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.

So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to have a less ugly website.

The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made), but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably 3 times less "high" than it was previously.

The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was before.

http://groovy.codehaus.org/

Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!

PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography system http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as highlight.js for the Groovy syntax highlighting.

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Hi Russel.

Russel Winder wrote:

(...)

The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
not becomming a novella. (...)

    Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I hardly find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a different frame.

Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
and Grails. (...)
  

    Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives because of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
    PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.

As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
development Grails stagnates.
  

    I agree (?) ;-)
    I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules / extensions using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.

(...)

It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
material approved by Guillaume.
  

    Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can approve/reject the pull requests.
    For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool or anything without a clear flow of approval.

    For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the change:

    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
    https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
    http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313

   
    Best regards,

          Daniel.


   

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Guillaume Laforge]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 02:53, Bob Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

Much nicer, imho.

For me on ie8/xp (work) ie9/ win7 (home) and on my ipad, the icon above Guillame's name in the "latest news" section shows as a broken link with a red cross and "user icon: glaforge".

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I've see the cross as well, but today it seems to be back.

I've no idea why this is so.

Perhaps a quirck with the Confluence backend :-(

 

At work, the star to the left of 'Groovy' on the fixed top bar shows as an empty box, is this due to a mossing font? Its ok on the ipad and at home...

Yeah, that's actually a Unicode character, so perhaps the font that was used for display didn't have that character.

I guess I should probably replace that with a small gif or something like that.

What OS / browser were you using then? 

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Daniel Henrique Alves Lima]

        Guillaume, I can't see the examples on this page:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/Strings+and+GString
        Do you think it is a side effect of the change?

        Thanks.

        Best regards,

                Daniel.


2011/9/7, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
>
> This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.
>
> As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on
> overhauling the website and documentation.
> There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content
> itself.
> The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take
> a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation
> self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).
> We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website --
> we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.
>
> So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to
> have a less ugly website.
> The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made),
> but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably
> 3
> times less "high" than it was previously.
>
> The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably
> have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style
> will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was
> before.
>
> http://groovy.codehaus.org/
>
> Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!
>
> PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography
> system<http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/>
>  http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as
> highlight.js<http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/>for the
> Groovy syntax highlighting.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> **
>>     Hi Russel.
>>
>> Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
>> arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
>> if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
>> they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
>> not becomming a novella. (...)
>>
>>
>>     Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I
>> hardly
>> find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I
>> prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a
>> different frame.
>>
>>
>>  Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
>> people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
>> there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
>> what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
>> VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
>> themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
>> experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
>> forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
>> and Grails. (...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives
>> because
>> of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template
>> engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
>>     PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature
>> product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These
>> thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.
>>
>>
>>  As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
>> see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
>> should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
>> etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
>> development Grails stagnates.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I agree (?) ;-)
>>     I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of
>> Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules /
>> extensions
>> using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
>> starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
>> Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
>> technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
>> material approved by Guillaume.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can
>> approve/reject the pull requests.
>>     For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool
>> or
>> anything without a clear flow of approval.
>>
>>     For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the
>> change:
>>
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
>>     http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313
>>
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>           Daniel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
> http://www.springsource.com/g2one
>

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[Guillaume Laforge]

I think it's due to the Confluence upgrade, not to the new skin.

I'll investigate that, as I know the Codehaus admin did something to make certain examples work, but I'm not sure what.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 19:15, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

       Guillaume, I can't see the examples on this page:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/Strings+and+GString
       Do you think it is a side effect of the change?

       Thanks.

       Best regards,

               Daniel.


2011/9/7, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
>
> This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.
>
> As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on
> overhauling the website and documentation.
> There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content
> itself.
> The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take
> a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation
> self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).
> We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website --
> we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.
>
> So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to
> have a less ugly website.
> The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made),
> but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably
> 3
> times less "high" than it was previously.
>
> The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably
> have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style
> will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was
> before.
>
> http://groovy.codehaus.org/
>
> Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!
>
> PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography
> system<http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/>
>  http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as

> highlight.js<http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/>for the

> Groovy syntax highlighting.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> **
>>     Hi Russel.
>>
>> Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
>> arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
>> if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
>> they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
>> not becomming a novella. (...)
>>
>>
>>     Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I
>> hardly
>> find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I
>> prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a
>> different frame.
>>
>>
>>  Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
>> people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
>> there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
>> what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
>> VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
>> themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
>> experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
>> forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
>> and Grails. (...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives
>> because
>> of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template
>> engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
>>     PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature
>> product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These
>> thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.
>>
>>
>>  As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
>> see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
>> should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
>> etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
>> development Grails stagnates.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I agree (?) ;-)
>>     I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of
>> Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules /
>> extensions
>> using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
>> starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
>> Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
>> technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
>> material approved by Guillaume.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can
>> approve/reject the pull requests.
>>     For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool
>> or
>> anything without a clear flow of approval.
>>
>>     For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the
>> change:
>>
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
>>     http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313
>>
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>           Daniel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
> http://www.springsource.com/g2one
>

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Guillaume Laforge]

Examples and their syntax highlighting are back.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 22:06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think it's due to the Confluence upgrade, not to the new skin.

I'll investigate that, as I know the Codehaus admin did something to make certain examples work, but I'm not sure what.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 19:15, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

       Guillaume, I can't see the examples on this page:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/Strings+and+GString
       Do you think it is a side effect of the change?

       Thanks.

       Best regards,

               Daniel.


2011/9/7, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
>
> This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.
>
> As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on
> overhauling the website and documentation.
> There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content
> itself.
> The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take
> a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation
> self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).
> We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website --
> we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.
>
> So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to
> have a less ugly website.
> The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made),
> but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably
> 3
> times less "high" than it was previously.
>
> The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably
> have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style
> will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was
> before.
>
> http://groovy.codehaus.org/
>
> Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!
>
> PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography
> system<http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/>
>  http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as

> highlight.js<http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/>for the

> Groovy syntax highlighting.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> **
>>     Hi Russel.
>>
>> Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
>> arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
>> if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
>> they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
>> not becomming a novella. (...)
>>
>>
>>     Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I
>> hardly
>> find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I
>> prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a
>> different frame.
>>
>>
>>  Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
>> people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
>> there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
>> what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
>> VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
>> themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
>> experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
>> forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
>> and Grails. (...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives
>> because
>> of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template
>> engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
>>     PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature
>> product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These
>> thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.
>>
>>
>>  As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
>> see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
>> should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
>> etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
>> development Grails stagnates.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I agree (?) ;-)
>>     I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of
>> Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules /
>> extensions
>> using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
>> starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
>> Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
>> technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
>> material approved by Guillaume.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can
>> approve/reject the pull requests.
>>     For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool
>> or
>> anything without a clear flow of approval.
>>
>>     For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the
>> change:
>>
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
>>     http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313
>>
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>           Daniel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
> http://www.springsource.com/g2one
>

--

Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

[Daniel Henrique Alves Lima]

    Thanks.

Guillaume Laforge wrote:

Examples and their syntax highlighting are back.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 22:06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think it's due to the Confluence upgrade, not to the new skin.

I'll investigate that, as I know the Codehaus admin did something to make certain examples work, but I'm not sure what.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 19:15, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

       Guillaume, I can't see the examples on this page:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/Strings+and+GString
       Do you think it is a side effect of the change?

       Thanks.

       Best regards,

               Daniel.


2011/9/7, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
>
> This thread's been pretty interesting, so please allow me to jump in.
>
> As I've mentioned in other threads recently, we definitely plan on
> overhauling the website and documentation.
> There's the look'n feel of the website, and there's the actual content
> itself.
> The former is easier to work on, and more quickly, but the latter will take
> a lot of time (and we also have ideas for making the documentation
> self-testable and interactive, but more on that later).
> We're going to work with a web designer for a much nicer looking website --
> we already have a first mockup, but it still needs work.
>
> So in the meantime, I hacked some templates and CSS today to, at least, to
> have a less ugly website.
> The content is otherwise still the same (except a few corrections I made),
> but I've taken the opportunity to trim the front page a lot. It's probably
> 3
> times less "high" than it was previously.
>
> The current new look will probably be only temporary, and we'll probably
> have something better in the coming months, but I hope that this new style
> will be a bit refreshing, and make the website look nicer than it was
> before.
>
> http://groovy.codehaus.org/
>
> Guillaume... who's not a profesional web designer!
>
> PS: For the curious, I used Twitter's Bootstrap grid / typography
> system<http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/>
>  http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ as well as

> highlight.js<http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/highlight/en/>for the

> Groovy syntax highlighting.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 00:49, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> **
>>     Hi Russel.
>>
>> Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> The single most important thing though is navigability: can the user
>> arrive at the site and find the material they want in 1..3 clicks, and
>> if they want something else can it be got in 1..3 clicks from wherever
>> they are.  This is simplifying the issue for the purpose of this email
>> not becomming a novella. (...)
>>
>>
>>     Google can solve the problem related to the number of clicks. I
>> hardly
>> find anything by browsing through Grails documentation, for example. So I
>> prefer small/concise pages or a large page with anchors and links in a
>> different frame.
>>
>>
>>  Well here we come to the crux of the matter.  Scala now has lots of
>> people with financial vested interest, Grails and Gradle likewise.  Thus
>> there is generally some funding for sales and marketing activity.  From
>> what I can tell the only commercial funding of Groovy is, I believe,
>> VMWare paying Guillaume and Jochen -- who, I think they would admit
>> themselves, are not user interaction experts, nor being paid to do user
>> experience development on Groovy marketing.  Also of course, not to
>> forget, Andrew and Andy who are doing work on Eclipse support for Groovy
>> and Grails. (...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Ok. But how about PostgreSQL or FreeMarker? AFAIK, FM survives
>> because
>> of volunteers. I'm aware that Groovy can be more complex than a template
>> engine, but I'm discussing the improvement of the site and documentation.
>>     PSQL and FM sites give the impression of describing a more mature
>> product than the Groovy site. Don't they? It's just my opinion. These
>> thing about appearance and usability aren't my strong suit.
>>
>>
>>  As it is VMware/SpringSource clearly
>> see no commercial advantage in supporting marketing of Groovy -- why
>> should they is is not an income generating thing, that is Grails, Roo,
>> etc.  Clearly this is a bit short-sighted since without Groovy
>> development Grails stagnates.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I agree (?) ;-)
>>     I think Groovy shouldn't depend/rely on the (relative) success of
>> Grails or any module. Companies that generate revenue through modules /
>> extensions
>> using Groovy could help, but we have no control over that.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> It's down to resource though.  Volunteers come and go as they want,
>> starting activities and dropping them unfinished if they so desire.  If
>> Groovy is to have quality materials guaranteed then some quality
>> technical authors need to be given contracts to provide quality finished
>> material approved by Guillaume.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Are the docs stored on GitHub? If they are, Guillaume can
>> approve/reject the pull requests.
>>     For me the problem here is to document things using a Wiki like tool
>> or
>> anything without a clear flow of approval.
>>
>>     For instance, Bobby had changed the docs and Peter has approved the
>> change:
>>
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58
>>     https://github.com/grails/grails-doc/pull/58/files
>>     http://jira.grails.org/browse/GRAILS-7313
>>
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>           Daniel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
> http://www.springsource.com/g2one
>

--

Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one