Groovy Champions proposal feedback

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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Andres Almiray
Groovy Star has a nice ring to it, specially if the logo of the program links to the Groovy logo :-)

-------------------------------------------
Java Champion; Groovy Enthusiast
JCP EC Associate Seat
http://andresalmiray.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/aalmiray
--
What goes up, must come down. Ask any system administrator.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 5:13 AM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.






--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.

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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Mario Garcia
Of course +1000 to the idea :)

2018-02-14 4:39 GMT+01:00 Andres Almiray <[hidden email]>:
Groovy Star has a nice ring to it, specially if the logo of the program links to the Groovy logo :-)

-------------------------------------------
Java Champion; Groovy Enthusiast
JCP EC Associate Seat
http://andresalmiray.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/aalmiray
--
What goes up, must come down. Ask any system administrator.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 5:13 AM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.






--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.


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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Cédric Champeau
In reply to this post by MG

Or for something with a bit more pep "Groovy Vanguard Developer / Contributor 2018" or "Groovy Crack 2018".

Contrary to Java Champions, I would suggest tying it to a specific year:

I like the idea of having it associated with a year, but it doesn't have to. Explanation below.
 
That way people who no longer are Groovy contributors do not carry the title forever (the Russian guy who is now working on Kotlin comes to mind)

His name is Alex Tkachman, and while he's not involved in the language anymore, he's still one of the biggest contributors to Groovy. Most of the performance improvements in the "legacy" (non indy) dynamic runtime of Groovy were from him and still active. He was also source of inspiration for the static compiler (Groovy++). I think he deserves the title more than lots of us. And I think we shouldn't go into the "he's gone to competition" route. Languages evolve, Kotlin is a very nice language, that took inspiration from us as well as others, and we have lots of things to learn from it too.
 
, and on the other hand some people could get the title several years in a row, as a sign of continued gratitude.


If they do, they would be good candidates for the PMC.
 
Cheers,
mg



On 13.02.2018 14:13, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.






--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.


MG
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

MG
That depends on whether this honor is designed to promote Groovy and say thank you to people who are doing something for Groovy and the Groovy ecosystem right now, or if it is to honor people who have done so in the past, whatever they are doing right now.

Would you suggest we also honor Groovy inventor James Strachan, who wrote in 2009 in his Blog "I can honestly say if someone had shown me the Programming in Scala book by by Martin Odersky, Lex Spoon & Bill Venners back in 2003 I'd probably have never created Groovy.":
http://macstrac.blogspot.co.at/2009/04/scala-as-long-term-replacement-for.html
https://www.quora.com/Is-Groovy-going-away-When-the-author-of-Groovy-says-he-would-have-never-created-Groovy-if-he-knew-about-Scala-then-it-makes-me-wonder-if-there-is-a-future-at-all
?

In comparison with Java Champions, Java is (or at least has been over a long period of time) a very slowly moving, stable platform. Most Java champions have built their professional careers around Java, which is also in no danger to be replaced by any other language within the JVM world, so they are extremely unlikely to do something detrimental to Java. In this regard Groovy is not similar to Java (see for instance your company's switch to Kotlin, which might or might not have been something you wanted, but which in any case happened).

Kotlin is not Scala, or Jython, or Ceylon. It is the language pushed by the company that makes the IDE that most Groovy development happens with, they can supply tool support for Kotlin that surpasses anything for any other language, and they will push any other language out, given the chance. It just makes economic sense - otherwise why invest in a new language in the first place ? For the same reason I would be surprised if Gradle will not, at some point, drop Groovy support, if Gradle users do not continue to predominantly use Groovy.

I am not dissing Alex Tkachman, btw: I know he did a lot for Groovy, and his groovypp compiler was the reason I made the leap of faith (see e.g. "I can honestly say if someone had shown me the Programming in Scala book..." above) and based a new project that was given to me on Groovy a few years back, thinking that I could always fall back to Groovy++'s static compilation support, should Groovy's performance not be enough (without having to resort to using Java instead). It was bad news when I learned that it seemed there had been some sort of conflict between the groovypp author and other Groovy devs, which did not like groovypp and instead wanted to go in a different, yet-to-be-implemented (!) direction of supplying optional static compilation using an annotation. Fortunately we now have @CompileStatic support, but for a time I was questioning my decision to go with Groovy in the first place, even if I had already come to like the language a lot by then.

I do not pretend to be an expert on the history of Groovy (or Gradle/Kotlin for that matter), but to me it looks like giving someone honors who is working on what looks like Groovy's biggest rival at the moment might, might not be the smartest move...

A long reply for sure, but it's a complicated topic,
mg



On 14.02.2018 12:23, Cédric Champeau wrote:

Or for something with a bit more pep "Groovy Vanguard Developer / Contributor 2018" or "Groovy Crack 2018".

Contrary to Java Champions, I would suggest tying it to a specific year:

I like the idea of having it associated with a year, but it doesn't have to. Explanation below.
 
That way people who no longer are Groovy contributors do not carry the title forever (the Russian guy who is now working on Kotlin comes to mind)

His name is Alex Tkachman, and while he's not involved in the language anymore, he's still one of the biggest contributors to Groovy. Most of the performance improvements in the "legacy" (non indy) dynamic runtime of Groovy were from him and still active. He was also source of inspiration for the static compiler (Groovy++). I think he deserves the title more than lots of us. And I think we shouldn't go into the "he's gone to competition" route. Languages evolve, Kotlin is a very nice language, that took inspiration from us as well as others, and we have lots of things to learn from it too.





MG
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

MG
In reply to this post by Cédric Champeau
PS: The process by which Groovy honors shall be bestowed is another point that needs imho to be carefully considered, otherwise e.g. someone with 50+ Facebook friends can easily swing any vote (I have seen this happen before).


On 14.02.2018 12:23, Cédric Champeau wrote:

Or for something with a bit more pep "Groovy Vanguard Developer / Contributor 2018" or "Groovy Crack 2018".

Contrary to Java Champions, I would suggest tying it to a specific year:

I like the idea of having it associated with a year, but it doesn't have to. Explanation below.
 
That way people who no longer are Groovy contributors do not carry the title forever (the Russian guy who is now working on Kotlin comes to mind)

His name is Alex Tkachman, and while he's not involved in the language anymore, he's still one of the biggest contributors to Groovy. Most of the performance improvements in the "legacy" (non indy) dynamic runtime of Groovy were from him and still active. He was also source of inspiration for the static compiler (Groovy++). I think he deserves the title more than lots of us. And I think we shouldn't go into the "he's gone to competition" route. Languages evolve, Kotlin is a very nice language, that took inspiration from us as well as others, and we have lots of things to learn from it too.
 
, and on the other hand some people could get the title several years in a row, as a sign of continued gratitude.


If they do, they would be good candidates for the PMC.
 
Cheers,
mg



On 13.02.2018 14:13, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.






--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.



MG
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

MG
In reply to this post by Cédric Champeau
PPS: I do not agree with you assessment of Kotlin: Apart from it being always statically typed (less flexible than Groovy, but sometimes just all one needs, and definitely easier for Java-only-developers to wrap their head around; also helps avoid the annoying "only a scripting language" tag), I find it to be 95% Groovy, with an added 5% of really weird/bad syntactic/semantic decisions (Javascript type declarartion syntax, which works well for a very weakly typed language only were you seldom use it, and the imho clumsy non-null-syntax semantics).
Implementation wise they have done some things which Groovy should do, but these are no-brainers, e.g. the semantics of inline closures, or that final variables with no explicit type are not of type Object, but of the type they were assigned, or named parameters support which does not try to force-map the problem to a (non type safe) map.


On 14.02.2018 12:23, Cédric Champeau wrote:

Or for something with a bit more pep "Groovy Vanguard Developer / Contributor 2018" or "Groovy Crack 2018".

Contrary to Java Champions, I would suggest tying it to a specific year:

I like the idea of having it associated with a year, but it doesn't have to. Explanation below.
 
That way people who no longer are Groovy contributors do not carry the title forever (the Russian guy who is now working on Kotlin comes to mind)

His name is Alex Tkachman, and while he's not involved in the language anymore, he's still one of the biggest contributors to Groovy. Most of the performance improvements in the "legacy" (non indy) dynamic runtime of Groovy were from him and still active. He was also source of inspiration for the static compiler (Groovy++). I think he deserves the title more than lots of us. And I think we shouldn't go into the "he's gone to competition" route. Languages evolve, Kotlin is a very nice language, that took inspiration from us as well as others, and we have lots of things to learn from it too.
 
, and on the other hand some people could get the title several years in a row, as a sign of continued gratitude.


If they do, they would be good candidates for the PMC.
 
Cheers,
mg



On 13.02.2018 14:13, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

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--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
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MG
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

MG
One other thing from the no-brainers section that Kotlin does better than Groovy: Ctors can be called without the new keyword.
(Groovy's offer in this regard is alas severly lacking, hence nobody uses it...)

On 14.02.2018 22:50, MG wrote:
PPS: I do not agree with you assessment of Kotlin: Apart from it being always statically typed (less flexible than Groovy, but sometimes just all one needs, and definitely easier for Java-only-developers to wrap their head around; also helps avoid the annoying "only a scripting language" tag), I find it to be 95% Groovy, with an added 5% of really weird/bad syntactic/semantic decisions (Javascript type declarartion syntax, which works well for a very weakly typed language only were you seldom use it, and the imho clumsy non-null-syntax semantics).
Implementation wise they have done some things which Groovy should do, but these are no-brainers, e.g. the semantics of inline closures, or that final variables with no explicit type are not of type Object, but of the type they were assigned, or named parameters support which does not try to force-map the problem to a (non type safe) map.


On 14.02.2018 12:23, Cédric Champeau wrote:

Or for something with a bit more pep "Groovy Vanguard Developer / Contributor 2018" or "Groovy Crack 2018".

Contrary to Java Champions, I would suggest tying it to a specific year:

I like the idea of having it associated with a year, but it doesn't have to. Explanation below.
 
That way people who no longer are Groovy contributors do not carry the title forever (the Russian guy who is now working on Kotlin comes to mind)

His name is Alex Tkachman, and while he's not involved in the language anymore, he's still one of the biggest contributors to Groovy. Most of the performance improvements in the "legacy" (non indy) dynamic runtime of Groovy were from him and still active. He was also source of inspiration for the static compiler (Groovy++). I think he deserves the title more than lots of us. And I think we shouldn't go into the "he's gone to competition" route. Languages evolve, Kotlin is a very nice language, that took inspiration from us as well as others, and we have lots of things to learn from it too.
 
, and on the other hand some people could get the title several years in a row, as a sign of continued gratitude.


If they do, they would be good candidates for the PMC.
 
Cheers,
mg



On 13.02.2018 14:13, Søren Berg Glasius wrote:
+1 on the name! 

I think it's cool to differentiate the Groovy award from other awards like Java Rock-stars and Java Champions, Grails Rock-stars, and more! 


On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 14:09 Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's funny, I think we didn't think about "stars" in our previous conversations, and I must say I quite like it, and it makes sense considering our logo :-D

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Jennifer Strater <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 for the proposal and +1 for "Groovy Stars"

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul King <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mind "Groovy Stars" as a name!

Of course it begs the question "Star trek" or "Star Wars" - the long journey
of programming language design vs the language wars! :-)


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Dierk König <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m all for honoring contributions to the language/ecosystem/community. 
Given our logo, „Groovy Star“ comes to mind :-)

Cheers
Dierk

sent from:mobile 

Am 13.02.2018 um 12:29 schrieb Paolo Di Tommaso <[hidden email]>:

It sound a nice idea also to promote the visibility of the groovy community. 


p

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 PM, Søren Berg Glasius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm definitely +1

It is always important to recognize and encourage the ones making a difference to the community. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 at 11:32 Schalk Cronjé <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's a +1 from me for the concep.


On 13/02/2018 10:58, Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us have had various discussions (in fact over many years)
> about having a recognition scheme similar to Java Champions,
> perhaps called "Groovy Champions" or "Apache Groovy Champions"
> or something else entirely if we think of a better name.
>
> I think the idea has always been to recognize contribution within the
> whole Groovy ecosystem not just the Apache Groovy project. The many
> tens of projects within the ecosystem are often where many ideas come
> from for the project's future evolution and also where future contributors
> may arise. And in any case, Groovy has always been about making
> coding productive and fun and we should celebrate that widely!
>
> There are various questions to ask like should such a scheme
> be formally coordinated by the project/by Apache or should it be run as a
> community-driven unsanctioned activity and if so what guidelines should
> be in place. Also, there are many details like how will the scheme
> operate?
> How are new members elected? Is it a lifetime recognition or is there
> an "emeritus" status? And so forth. Java Champions vote themselves
> on new champions and the recognition has a lifetime status for instance.
> if we progress this idea, we'd need to make that all clear but that isn't
> the purpose of this email - we need to first decide if we like the idea.
>
> Even if we like the idea, there are still some hurdles to step through.
> We've already sought some informal feedback from other parts of
> Apache and other projects within the Groovy Ecosystem and we'll
> likely need further discussions. We want something that embraces
> the whole community but fits in with Apache project governance
> around trademarks/branding.
>
> So, the first question is: are we as a project in favor of such a scheme?
>
> Cheers, Paul.


--
Schalk W. Cronjé
Twitter / Ello / Toeter : @ysb33r

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.






--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
Søren Berg Glasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
Mobile: <a href="tel:+45%2040%2044%2091%2088" value="+4540449188" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.




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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Jochen Theodorou
In reply to this post by MG
On 14.02.2018 22:38, MG wrote:
[...]
> Would you suggest we also honor Groovy inventor James Strachan, who
> wrote in 2009 in his Blog "I can honestly say if someone had shown me
> the Programming in Scala book by by Martin Odersky, Lex Spoon & Bill
> Venners back in 2003 I'd probably have never created Groovy.":
> http://macstrac.blogspot.co.at/2009/04/scala-as-long-term-replacement-for.html
> https://www.quora.com/Is-Groovy-going-away-When-the-author-of-Groovy-says-he-would-have-never-created-Groovy-if-he-knew-about-Scala-then-it-makes-me-wonder-if-there-is-a-future-at-all
> ?

I counter with https://twitter.com/jstrachan/status/784333918078169088:

> I still love groovy (jenkins pipelines are so groovy!), java, go, typescript and kotlin. I don’t use scala any more

I think that proofs, that this discussion with Scala is just not worth
it really.

bye Jochen
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Jochen Theodorou
In reply to this post by MG
On 14.02.2018 22:50, MG wrote:
[...]
> but these are no-brainers, e.g. the semantics of inline closures, or
> that final variables with no explicit type are not of type Object, but
> of the type they were assigned, or named parameters support which does
> not try to force-map the problem to a (non type safe) map.

just wanting to comment here...

For me inline closures are not a no-brainer, not at all. just because
their solution may look simple does not mean it was easy to develop or
that it can be used for Groovy.

final variables with no explicit type not being of type Object is the
case for type-checked variant and in normal Groovy it does not play any
role (not even the modifier does play a real role in the compilation result)

for the named parameters support the map solution does only not suffice
for the static compiler in the end... A pragmatic solution would be to
say foo(x:1) can call foo(int) if the parameter is named x and that this
call is taken even if there is a foo(Map) variant, plus that dynamic
Groovy will always call the map variant. And then somebody has to
implement this based on the java8 parameter information (which means
java8 will be required for this feature of course). All doable, given time


bye Jochen
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Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback

Jochen Theodorou
In reply to this post by MG
On 15.02.2018 06:04, MG wrote:
> One other thing from the no-brainers section that Kotlin does better
> than Groovy: Ctors can be called without the new keyword.
> (Groovy's offer in this regard is alas severly lacking, hence nobody
> uses it...)

I know this from Scala, how is the usage of this in Kotlin? Just to not
to have to write "new" is not enough of an advantage for me to implement
this and get all the negative side effects. There must be more to the
usage than just that. And I assume there is in Kotlin, which I do not
know about

bye Jochen

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